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This queue is for tickets about the Geography-JapanesePrefectures CPAN distribution.

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The Basics
Id: 72164
Status: open
Priority: 0/
Queue: Geography-JapanesePrefectures
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Owner: Nobody in particular
Requestors: Ben Bullock (no email address)
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History Show all quoted text
  Fri Nov 04 04:58:08 2011 Ben Bullock - Ticket created
Subject: Hokkaido, Osaka but Hyōgo, Ōita
The module sometimes uses macrons and sometimes doesn't. E.g. Hokkaido but Hyōgo Also Osaka but Ōita It should be consistent. I would suggest also including the kana versions of the names. https://github.com/benkasminbullock/Geography-JapanesePrefectures
  Fri Nov 04 12:10:30 2011 MIYAGAWA [...] cpan.org - Correspondence added
On Fri Nov 04 04:58:08 2011, bkb@cpan.org wrote: Show quoted text
> The module sometimes uses macrons and sometimes doesn't. E.g. > > Hokkaido but Hyōgo > > Also > > Osaka but Ōita > > It should be consistent.
I think the current implementation represents the de-facto standard spellings, and only uses macrons if a long vowel come before other vowels (like Ōita) or uses combinations like o+u (Hyōgo, Kōchi). That said Tokyo and Kyoto are always exceptional and inconsistent I agree. All in all, the original code represents what is widely used and accepted. Geo names are names, not words in the dictionary, and Japanese rules accept variations. Making things consistent on one variation would actually make it inconsistent from what people expect and accept. See how all the canonical names use macrons (like you suggest) in the list, but actual links will be redirected to the more accepted versions (like Hokkaidō -> Hokkaido) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefectures_of_Japan#List_in_ISO_order Show quoted text
> I would suggest also including the kana versions > of the names. > > https://github.com/benkasminbullock/Geography-JapanesePrefectures
There are few obvious bugs that makes me question your familiarity. {id => '15', name => '新潟県', region => '信越', kana => 'にいがた', roman => 'Nigata', macron => 'Nīgata', }, にいがた should always be Niigata. No macrons in either traditional/modified Hepburn for i+i. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#I_.2B_I http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niigata_Prefecture {id => '44', name => '大分県', region => '九州', kana => 'おういた', roman => 'Oita', macron => 'Ōita', }, 大分 is おおいた not おういた.
  Fri Nov 04 12:10:31 2011 The RT System itself - Status changed from 'new' to 'open'
  Fri Nov 04 18:36:11 2011 bkb [...] cpan.org - Correspondence added
Subject: Re: [rt.cpan.org #72164] Hokkaido, Osaka but Hyōgo, Ōita
Date: Sat, 5 Nov 2011 07:36:01 +0900
To: bug-Geography-JapanesePrefectures [...] rt.cpan.org
From: Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock [...] gmail.com>
On 5 November 2011 01:10, Tatsuhiko Miyagawa via RT <bug-Geography-JapanesePrefectures@rt.cpan.org> wrote: Show quoted text
> <URL: https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=72164 > > > On Fri Nov 04 04:58:08 2011, bkb@cpan.org wrote:
>> The module sometimes uses macrons and sometimes doesn't. E.g. >> >> Hokkaido but Hyōgo >> >> Also >> >> Osaka but Ōita >> >> It should be consistent.
> > I think the current implementation represents the de-facto standard spellings, and only uses > macrons if a long vowel come before other vowels (like Ōita) or uses combinations like o+u > (Hyōgo, Kōchi).
Thanks for your reply, but please examine the following: http://www.pref.oita.jp/english/ http://web.pref.hyogo.jp/FL/english/ http://www.pref.kochi.lg.jp/english/ These are the English-language websites of the prefectures in question, and all of these places name themselves without a macron. Show quoted text
> That said Tokyo and Kyoto are always exceptional and inconsistent I agree.
I don't think they are exceptional. The system of dropping the macron is used for all road signs everywhere in Japan, and for official documents like passports which are romanized. Show quoted text
> All in all, the > original code represents what is widely used and accepted.
If you have time then please have a look at some of these images: Railway signs showing Tokyo and Kyoto with macrons: http://www.superstock.com/stock-photos-images/1597-107195 http://www.superstock.co.uk/stock-photos-images/442-12450 http://shibuya246.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/03/img_1261.jpg Passport showing no macron on o of saito: http://www.hyscience.com/images/saito_akihiko_passport.jpg Road signs: http://img187.imageshack.us/img187/4545/p10802971.jpg http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/67/Japanese_Road_Sign_119_%28Street_name%29.jpg/1024px-Japanese_Road_Sign_119_%28Street_name%29.jpg http://www.flickr.com/photos/hrm01/5093233565/ Show quoted text
> Geo names are names, not words > in the dictionary, and Japanese rules accept variations. Making things consistent on one > variation would actually make it inconsistent from what people expect and accept.
Hum, maybe; but as far as I know the system without macrons is the one used by all government bodies in Japan. Show quoted text
> See how all the canonical names use macrons (like you suggest) in the list, but actual links > will be redirected to the more accepted versions (like Hokkaidō -> Hokkaido) > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prefectures_of_Japan#List_in_ISO_order
No comment. Show quoted text
>> I would suggest also including the kana versions >> of the names. >> >> https://github.com/benkasminbullock/Geography-JapanesePrefectures
> > There are few obvious bugs that makes me question your familiarity. > > {id => '15', name => '新潟県', region => '信越', kana => 'にいがた', roman => 'Nigata', > macron => 'Nīgata', },
Show quoted text
> にいがた should always be Niigata. No macrons in either traditional/modified Hepburn for i+i. > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hepburn_romanization#I_.2B_I > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niigata_Prefecture > > {id => '44', name => '大分県', region => '九州', kana => 'おういた', roman => 'Oita', macron > => 'Ōita', }, > > 大分 is おおいた not おういた.
Sorry about the bugs. You are right to question my familiarity. Incidentally I fixed this module because I actually need it for a project I am doing, so your corrections of my incorrections will be useful. Thanks.
  Sat Nov 05 12:00:36 2011 MIYAGAWA [...] cpan.org - Correspondence added
On Fri Nov 04 18:36:11 2011, BKB wrote: Show quoted text
> On 5 November 2011 01:10, Tatsuhiko Miyagawa via RT
Show quoted text
> Thanks for your reply, but please examine the following:
(lots of example using/not using macrons) Yes, your examples are the prime proofs that Japanese accepts variations. More specifically, prefectures' own websites try to omit the macrons, while railways try using macrons for everything. Show quoted text
> > That said Tokyo and Kyoto are always exceptional and inconsistent I
> agree. > > I don't think they are exceptional.
Well, I meant that in the original code (and Wikipedia redirection rules that I posted) omit macrons for Tokyo and Kyoto while keeping them in others like Kochi and Hyogo, which made them a special case, or "inconsistent" like you point out in the first place. Show quoted text
> Passport showing no macron on o of saito: > > http://www.hyscience.com/images/saito_akihiko_passport.jpg
Let's not talk about passport spellings here, since the passport is for people's names not geo names, and it has its own rules, set by the government: http://www.seikatubunka.metro.tokyo.jp/hebon/ ■長音：「O」や「U」は記入しない→ (例)　おおの　ONO／さいとう　SAITO http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Lingua-JA-Hepburn-Passport- 0.01/lib/Lingua/JA/Hepburn/Passport.pm (See who wrote the module? :D) Show quoted text
> Sorry about the bugs. You are right to question my familiarity. > > Incidentally I fixed this module because I actually need it for a > project I am doing, so your corrections of my incorrections will be > useful. Thanks.
:-)
  Sat Nov 05 19:03:44 2011 bkb [...] cpan.org - Correspondence added
Subject: Re: [rt.cpan.org #72164] Hokkaido, Osaka but Hyōgo, Ōita
Date: Sun, 6 Nov 2011 08:03:34 +0900
To: bug-Geography-JapanesePrefectures [...] rt.cpan.org
From: Ben Bullock <benkasminbullock [...] gmail.com>
On 6 November 2011 01:00, Tatsuhiko Miyagawa via RT <bug-Geography-JapanesePrefectures@rt.cpan.org> wrote: Show quoted text
> <URL: https://rt.cpan.org/Ticket/Display.html?id=72164 > > > On Fri Nov 04 18:36:11 2011, BKB wrote:
>> On 5 November 2011 01:10, Tatsuhiko Miyagawa via RT
>
>> Thanks for your reply, but please examine the following:
> > (lots of example using/not using macrons) > > Yes, your examples are the prime proofs that Japanese accepts variations.
What are you talking about? There are no variations in my examples, they are all consistent. If you have an example of variations of use of names by local government (e.g. a prefectural office or city hall which uses macrons) that would be interesting, but as it is all the evidence I gave you is to show that there is no variation, and the macron is not used. Show quoted text
> More specifically, > prefectures' own websites try to omit the macrons, while railways try using macrons for > everything.
Railway signs aren't controlled by the local government. Maybe there is some consistent set of rules for them but I don't know about it. Show quoted text
>> > That said Tokyo and Kyoto are always exceptional and inconsistent I
>> agree. >> >> I don't think they are exceptional.
> > Well, I meant that in the original code (and Wikipedia redirection rules that I posted) omit > macrons for Tokyo and Kyoto while keeping them in others like Kochi and Hyogo, which > made them a special case, or "inconsistent" like you point out in the first place.
Wikipedians put excess macrons on names. E.g., picking an article at random, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nagisa_%C5%8Cshima Notice that even in the same article, half of the instances of "Oshima" have a macron on the O, and half of them don't. And yet nowhere, on any film credits or film poster, does the director name himself with a macron. Show quoted text
>> Passport showing no macron on o of saito: >> >> http://www.hyscience.com/images/saito_akihiko_passport.jpg
> > Let's not talk about passport spellings here, since the passport is for people's names not geo > names, and it has its own rules, set by the government: > http://www.seikatubunka.metro.tokyo.jp/hebon/
There are consistent rules for geographical names too, set by the government. I don't wish to seem rude but I don't understand why you think that Wikipedia is more of an authority about how to write names in Japan than the Japanese government bodies. Show quoted text
> ■長音：「O」や「U」は記入しない→ (例)　おおの　ONO／さいとう　SAITO > > http://search.cpan.org/~miyagawa/Lingua-JA-Hepburn-Passport- > 0.01/lib/Lingua/JA/Hepburn/Passport.pm > (See who wrote the module? :D)
Well done for your creation. It's a very interesting module, I like it, and I intend to make maximum use of it. The bugs which you told me about I have fixed in the module: https://github.com/benkasminbullock/Geography-JapanesePrefectures Also "Gunma", which you didn't mention but was coming out as "Gumma". I will continue to maintain that public version of the module. But if you don't want to use that it is OK with me, so you can close this bug. Thanks for your time, and let us finish this discussion.